Adversity Score

Oneuli

Verified User
The SAT will soon begin reporting aspects of a student's background to colleges, in order to allow the college to factor it into admissions decisions. The idea is that someone who came from a privileged family and got great SAT scores may actually be less impressive than someone who came from a very difficult background and got merely good scores.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/16/us/sat-adversity-score/index.html

I like the overall idea, including as an alternative to race-based affirmative action. In school I knew some kids who were from a dirt-poor immigrant family, dealing with language, social, and economic obstacles, and yet when universities looked at them, they were just generically viewed as "Asian," and judged by harder standards than other applicants. Meanwhile, I had a friend who was the child of two doctors, whose grandparents had also gone to college, and who grew up with all the advantages money could buy. But, when colleges looked at her, she was "African American" and so assumed to have overcome major socioeconomic obstacles. Race-based affirmative action is probably better than making no attempt to address systemic racism, since it will diminish inequities more often than it will exacerbate them, just as a statistical reality. But more individualized approaches are superior.

Having said that, I question the way this particular plan is being set up. Specifically, the factors include "the crime rate and poverty levels of a student's high school and neighborhood." That's not terribly individualized, either. Consider two hypothetical students:

Student A comes from a poor family. They live in a space above the family's little restaurant, where the kids work in the evenings to help make ends meet. The restaurant, however, is in a pretty nice neighborhood... by design, since the family was desperate to get into a good school system, even if it meant cramming six people into a 900 square foot space and working themselves to the bone. (note, this hypothetical is based on a second cousin of mine)

Student B comes from a rich family. In fact, it's the wealthiest family in a whole county -- a rural county where they own the local car dealership and the patriarch is the mayor of the town. However, the town itself is pretty run-down. (note, this hypothetical is based on someone I knew in college).

Which of the two really overcame the most? Was it the one from the family scrimping and saving to live a spartan life in an expensive neighborhood, or the one living like feudal lords of an economically depressed kingdom? I'd argue that the first student overcame a lot more. You can live in a lousy town and attend a crummy school, but if you can afford to live in a gated community within that town and get expensive tutoring and enrichment opportunities, setting doesn't matter so much. In fact, you could be better off as a rich person in a poor neighborhood than a rich person in a rich one, given weaker academic competition and the ability of your dollar to go farther.

So, I'd argue in favor of an "adversity score" that was based strictly on money. Simply consider the parents' income over the prior five years, for example, and assign a score based on that. That's going to be the best realistic proxy for how much adversity the student likely faced.
 
The SAT will soon begin reporting aspects of a student's background to colleges, in order to allow the college to factor it into admissions decisions. The idea is that someone who came from a privileged family and got great SAT scores may actually be less impressive than someone who came from a very difficult background and got merely good scores.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/16/us/sat-adversity-score/index.html

I like the overall idea, including as an alternative to race-based affirmative action. In school I knew some kids who were from a dirt-poor immigrant family, dealing with language, social, and economic obstacles, and yet when universities looked at them, they were just generically viewed as "Asian," and judged by harder standards than other applicants. Meanwhile, I had a friend who was the child of two doctors, whose grandparents had also gone to college, and who grew up with all the advantages money could buy. But, when colleges looked at her, she was "African American" and so assumed to have overcome major socioeconomic obstacles. Race-based affirmative action is probably better than making no attempt to address systemic racism, since it will diminish inequities more often than it will exacerbate them, just as a statistical reality. But more individualized approaches are superior.

Having said that, I question the way this particular plan is being set up. Specifically, the factors include "the crime rate and poverty levels of a student's high school and neighborhood." That's not terribly individualized, either. Consider two hypothetical students:

Student A comes from a poor family. They live in a space above the family's little restaurant, where the kids work in the evenings to help make ends meet. The restaurant, however, is in a pretty nice neighborhood... by design, since the family was desperate to get into a good school system, even if it meant cramming six people into a 900 square foot space and working themselves to the bone. (note, this hypothetical is based on a second cousin of mine)

Student B comes from a rich family. In fact, it's the wealthiest family in a whole county -- a rural county where they own the local car dealership and the patriarch is the mayor of the town. However, the town itself is pretty run-down. (note, this hypothetical is based on someone I knew in college).

Which of the two really overcame the most? Was it the one from the family scrimping and saving to live a spartan life in an expensive neighborhood, or the one living like feudal lords of an economically depressed kingdom? I'd argue that the first student overcame a lot more. You can live in a lousy town and attend a crummy school, but if you can afford to live in a gated community within that town and get expensive tutoring and enrichment opportunities, setting doesn't matter so much. In fact, you could be better off as a rich person in a poor neighborhood than a rich person in a rich one, given weaker academic competition and the ability of your dollar to go farther.

So, I'd argue in favor of an "adversity score" that was based strictly on money. Simply consider the parents' income over the prior five years, for example, and assign a score based on that. That's going to be the best realistic proxy for how much adversity the student likely faced.

Hell freezes over. I agree with the entire OP.
https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...quot-to-help-non-whites&p=3046794#post3046794
 
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“The idea is that someone who came from a privileged family and got great SAT scores may actually be less impressive than someone who came from a very difficult background and got merely good scores.”

This declarative sentence should be sent to the Smithsonian to be enshrined forever to remind future generations that the person who constructed this abomination once walked among us.

Good grief.
 
“The idea is that someone who came from a privileged family and got great SAT scores may actually be less impressive than someone who came from a very difficult background and got merely good scores.”

This declarative sentence should be sent to the Smithsonian to be enshrined forever to remind future generations that the person who constructed this abomination once walked among us.

Good grief.

Well I don't totally agree with that quote from the OP.
I'd rephrase, “The idea is that someone who came from a privileged family and got great SAT scores may actually be less impressive than someone who came from a very difficult background and got the same scores.”
 
How about we put this thread in a sealed mayonnaise jar on Funk and Wagnall’s front porch and pretend it never happened?
 
How about we put this thread in a sealed mayonnaise jar on Funk and Wagnall’s front porch and pretend it never happened?

Why? This story is making national news and whether one agrees with the idea of the Adversity Score or not there is a very real divide in this country when it comes to accessing higher education (see Hillbilly Elegy as an example). This is always a worthy conversation.
 
I knew some kids who were from a dirt-poor immigrant family, dealing with language, social, and economic obstacles, and yet when universities looked at them, they were just generically viewed as "Asian," and judged by harder standards than other applicants. Meanwhile, I had a friend who was the child of two doctors, whose grandparents had also gone to college, and who grew up with all the advantages money could buy.

So you say.
 
If one student’s score is 1200 and the second student’s score is 1201, the second student should be admitted.

That’s what the test is for.

Otherwise just ignore the SAT and only admit the lowest scoring students.

Good grief.
 
If one student’s score is 1200 and the second student’s score is 1201, the second student should be admitted.

That’s what the test is for.

What makes you think that? I don't believe the intent of the SAT was ever to serve as a single-factor determination for admissions. Certainly no university has ever used it that way. In every case that it's used, it's just one factor among many, which can include GPA, course-load, recommendations, interviews, legacy status, parental donations, skills at sports and music, geographic and ethnic diversity, etc. The idea here is to add another factor to the mix.
 
The SAT will soon begin reporting aspects of a student's background to colleges, in order to allow the college to factor it into admissions decisions. The idea is that someone who came from a privileged family and got great SAT scores may actually be less impressive than someone who came from a very difficult background and got merely good scores.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/16/us/sat-adversity-score/index.html

I like the overall idea, including as an alternative to race-based affirmative action. In school I knew some kids who were from a dirt-poor immigrant family, dealing with language, social, and economic obstacles, and yet when universities looked at them, they were just generically viewed as "Asian," and judged by harder standards than other applicants. Meanwhile, I had a friend who was the child of two doctors, whose grandparents had also gone to college, and who grew up with all the advantages money could buy. But, when colleges looked at her, she was "African American" and so assumed to have overcome major socioeconomic obstacles. Race-based affirmative action is probably better than making no attempt to address systemic racism, since it will diminish inequities more often than it will exacerbate them, just as a statistical reality. But more individualized approaches are superior.

Having said that, I question the way this particular plan is being set up. Specifically, the factors include "the crime rate and poverty levels of a student's high school and neighborhood." That's not terribly individualized, either. Consider two hypothetical students:

Student A comes from a poor family. They live in a space above the family's little restaurant, where the kids work in the evenings to help make ends meet. The restaurant, however, is in a pretty nice neighborhood... by design, since the family was desperate to get into a good school system, even if it meant cramming six people into a 900 square foot space and working themselves to the bone. (note, this hypothetical is based on a second cousin of mine)

Student B comes from a rich family. In fact, it's the wealthiest family in a whole county -- a rural county where they own the local car dealership and the patriarch is the mayor of the town. However, the town itself is pretty run-down. (note, this hypothetical is based on someone I knew in college).

Which of the two really overcame the most? Was it the one from the family scrimping and saving to live a spartan life in an expensive neighborhood, or the one living like feudal lords of an economically depressed kingdom? I'd argue that the first student overcame a lot more. You can live in a lousy town and attend a crummy school, but if you can afford to live in a gated community within that town and get expensive tutoring and enrichment opportunities, setting doesn't matter so much. In fact, you could be better off as a rich person in a poor neighborhood than a rich person in a rich one, given weaker academic competition and the ability of your dollar to go farther.

So, I'd argue in favor of an "adversity score" that was based strictly on money. Simply consider the parents' income over the prior five years, for example, and assign a score based on that. That's going to be the best realistic proxy for how much adversity the student likely faced.

Like a typical leftist trying to presume what someone has or hasn’t overcome from outward appearances

It is nothing but bigotry designed to look like compassion

Can’t you leftists just mind your own fucking business?

Do you think poverty is the only obstacle in life someone has to overcome? God you are fucking ignorant and sheltered.
 
No, really, you don't have to underscore my victory that way. We all caught it the first time. You can pop in with another admission of defeat in the NEXT thread, loser.

So you say. Are you sure you don't want to cite "someone you know" as a corroborating witness?
 
Just a back asswards way to get to affirmative action

We already have all sorts of affirmative action in the college admissions process. For example, there's affirmative action for legacies. Was George W. Bush such a fantastic student in high school to justify getting into Yale? Of course not. He was a notoriously shitty student with mediocre SATs. But his dad and grandfather were Skull and Bones Men, with close ties to Yale royalty like William F. Buckley, and so Dubya would have had to have raped the Dean of Admission's poodle not to have his application accepted. There's also affirmative action to those whose families have made big donations. Was Donald Trump a compelling applicant? No. He was a discipline problem, who'd had to be sent to a special high school for the mentally defective children of the rich just to graduate. But, his father was a very wealthy man with the funds to buy buildings for any university willing to lower its standards for little Donnie, and that's what mattered.

There's also affirmative action based on geography. If you apply to, say, Harvard from a school in metro New York or Boston, you've got to be truly extraordinary to get in, because there's such a huge population of elite students in those areas, and Harvard doesn't want the class to be too heavily tilted towards people from those areas. Apply from a small town in the Midwest, on the other hand, and you've got a much better shot, since elite schools like to brag about having people from every state and background, and you might not be competing with too many to fill that niche.

Then there's the affirmative action for athletes. Anyone who thinks a star QB at Notre Dame, or power forward at Duke got in with coursework and SATs comparable to the class average is fooling herself. Those applications aren't even considered alongside the general population. They're considered against bare minimum academic standards.

What we're talking about here is another type of affirmative action. And there are two justifications for it. One is the "diversity" justification. Just as a university arguably wants to admit students from all around the country and the world, to create a student body that's diverse enough to enrich the educational experience for those who attend there, it should also want to admit students from different economic levels, so it's not just a collection of the children of the rich. And second is the notion that people who came from tougher economic backgrounds may actually have more raw academic talent, at a particular achievement level, than those who had their path paved with money. For example, if you have two kids with 1400 SATs, one of whom came from a family where she wasn't even made aware of the existence of SAT practice tests and guidebooks, and the other of whom came from a family that paid for two years of private SAT coaching before the test, which one is really the more likely to distinguish herself and her university if admitted?
 
I'd love to take credit for three straight wins in this thread, but that's probably unfair. I'll only count your initial admission of defeat, not you ongoing blubbering about it.

Can't you invent some "kids in school" that you supposedly "know" to "validate" your alleged "victory?"
 
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